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Subject Topic: EULA update Post ReplyPost New Topic
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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged Quote VarchildMarquee

johnpaulstoddar wrote:
Very simple, as already stated, A Boardgame requires a defined playing surface that require set starting places for all pieces.
...
... DJ is best suited for Battlemaps.


Yes, and Battlemaps transform an RPG into a Board game, because the GM or player defines the set starting places for the pieces, and the battlemap IS the defined playing surface.

You try to place your minis on a battlemap and not, in doing so, define a starting place. Your own definition of a board game results in the definition of a battlemap.

Stratego is a board game, and it's a battlemap. MageKnight Dungeons uses a battlemap and it's board game.
Zombies!!! consists of hundreds of modular battlemaps, but it is a board game.

I just want clearly defined rules, and the ambiguity of board games results in the prohibition of battlemaps.

Sure a reference map can be published still, but that leaves a good half of the program's function being wasted.

Another issue... I recently bought an RPG called New Gods of Mankind. The game has some overland continent maps, but has no smaller maps. They're looking for a way to make high definition maps for use in the game. However, they can't use DJ because the publication of maps, even on a overland scale would lead to those maps being utilized as strategy board game maps also.

You see, in the RPG, YOU play a god, and you sit high above in the celestial realm overseeing the activities of humans on the earth. The activities on the earth is primarily a strategy board game, with divine roleplaying affecting the outcome of events transpiring on the maps. The only battlemap use is for the movement of troops, the placement of cities and resources, and the playing out of conflicts between non-divine forces, unless YOU materialize on the earth to get involved.

Does that sound like a board game? Yes it is a board game, but it's also an RPG... But then, all RPG's with battlemaps are both.

A tabletop RPG adventure becomes a board game the first time a battlemap is set up and the GM places the first monster on the map.

And I'm not sure what your gaming groups have been like, but all the groups I've ever played with, the character interaction ceases as soon as a board hits the table to play the game on. Player interaction continues, but in-character banter takes a backseat to strategic calculation and discussion of movement, attack and how best to outmaneuver the enemy. When roleplay stops, is it still a roleplaying game?

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mercutio
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:19am | IP Logged Quote mercutio

Yeesh! Talk about splitting hairs.

Mindy already noted that the RPG maps must be in RPG products. That is vastly different from Monopoly. I've actually know someone who "roleplayed" the banker, but that doesn't make Monopoly an RPG.

You appear to be picking nits just to be an ass. Are you intending to create a product that is packaged like Monopoly and played in the same fashion?

How is the game marketed? Can you find it at KayBee toys under the board game section?

Board game - defined.
Merriam Webster online - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/board%20game - ": a game of strategy (as checkers, chess, or backgammon) played by moving pieces on a board "

Roleplaying game - defined.
Dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role-playing%20game - "a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master. "

And from wikipedia - "A role-playing game has no winners, the main purpose of the game is to have fun playing it. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. "

And from Wizards of the Coast - "What is a roleplaying game?
The D&D game is a fantasy game of your imagination. It is part acting, part storytelling, part social interaction, part war game, and part chance. You and your friends create characters that develop and grow with each adventure they complete. One player is the Dungeon Master (DM). The DM controls the monsters and enemies, narrates the action, referees the game, and sets up the adventure. Together, the Dungeon Master and the players make the game come alive."


ALSO - if there is a specific question, the EULA does indicate that you should contact DJ Enterprises with the details and they'll make the final decision.

Edited by mercutio on 04/29/2008 at 11:20am


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heruca
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:37am | IP Logged Quote heruca

Please, there's no need to be insulting. Keep it civil.

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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged Quote aegean

::woot::

yeah!!! just wished I read before mercutio edited it at 9:20pm, about time these threads got more spicy



::woot::

break out the gloves boys!!!

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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:55am | IP Logged Quote VarchildMarquee

Thanks, mercutio. You actually helped.

Although, the Merriam Webster definition of a board game fundamentally excludes a vast number of otherwise known board games.

Meanwhile, the Dictionary.com definition for a roleplaying game open-endedly includes board games like DragonStrike, Heroquest, and Clue: The Great Museum Caper.

The Wikipedia definition of a roleplaying game is superb, but fails to understand the nature of winning and losing. If all the players die or fail to meet the goal of an encounter, they feel very much as if they have lost. If they defeat their enemies they have most definitely won the encounter and get rewarded for it, usually in the form of treasure.

And using a definition of an RPG based on D&D standards is just limiting, as D&D has strayed as far away from the spirit of "roleplaying" as possible in exchange for strategy hack and slash dungeon crawling, which by my arguments is a Board Game, especially if played on a battlemap.

You can argue all you like that I'm doing this to be an ass, it doesn't make my argument any less important. And attacking me doesn't add any credence to your argument.

However, thank you for reminding us of the indication to contact DJ Enterprises with the details. When I have something to propose to them I will direct it to them.

Until then, I'd like to find out the actual boundaries, or help identify them. Kepli has agreed that the distinction between board game and role playing game needs to be better defined, and I'm trying to help in that regard, as it directly affects the EULA the best thread to host this argument is this one. As Kepli also said, "Maps made for a RPG module/adventure/campaign could be seen as boardgame-like, but those are only meant to spice up a roleplaying game, not as the main focus of a game. Take away the map and you can still play the adventure..." As such, Battlemaps could very well be disallowed from the publication clause as they inherently are board game-like, and are an unnecessary resource. Industry is driven by what is necessary.

Edited by VarchildMarquee on 04/29/2008 at 11:57am


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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 12:00pm | IP Logged Quote aegean

typo error.....

Edited by aegean on 04/29/2008 at 12:01pm


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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 12:00pm | IP Logged Quote aegean

Red text

Hot and spicy



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Cisticola
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:01pm | IP Logged Quote Cisticola

....Call me simple (and I am)....but role-playing
games.....are well, where you role-play......
....Is that not the point?....'Hack and Slash' funny
term, nope not listed in my AD&D DMs guide....

....Battlegrounds is an accessary...not a game...
'unnescessary resource'...funny choice of words...

...Red Text....cool

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mercutio
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote mercutio

Quote:
You can argue all you like that I'm doing this to be an ass, it doesn't make my argument any less important. And attacking me doesn't add any credence to your argument.
That wasn't my intent. I was pointing out that the incessant arguments, despite direct answers (which I think are very clear, not murky like you think) were deliberately provocative and not due to any real interest in what the answers were.

That said, binding legal text would be even more obfuscatory than the plain language "in support of the RPG industry" that was indicated in the posts here. Arguing for more details will actually lead to more confusion. The last time I read a mortgage contract I had to have a lawyer explain the stupid thing. I think that should be avoided in this context as much as possible.

Example - the Open-Gaming License that Wizards of the Coast put out was dense, but also easy to understand. The legalese which you seem to be arguing for would have drive that license into the dirt before it could come of use.

Even more problematic is as I indicated - the definitions themselves are squishy, which is why there are catch-all clauses.

I think, short of opening DJ for all commercial use (excepting the guidelines listed for DJ proprietary art) you won't be happy. But that is not DJ's intent. It was made as a tool for role-playing and in support of RPG creators. While I can see how the argument could be made that D&D is a board game (though I strongly disagree), the reverse could not be said of Monopoly (it is not an RPG). So the only compromise, even in legalese, would be to prohibit it's use in "any board game that lacks system- or rule-defined role-playing elements, including but not limited to Monopoly, chess, or backgammon"

Even that is squishy, though.

Really, I think the license can't be much more definitive without being more restrictive.

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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:44pm | IP Logged Quote aegean

oh come on!!!! these threads are for art.... art... ART!!!

This "commentary" for want of a better word are pushing other peoples art threads off the top of the list. ı just spent 2 days doing a large (albeit poor with typos) tut for the love of Dundjinni and the community here at large, and for what?

To decide if VarchildMarquee is a red texting "ass" or not? If people wish to decide whether VarchildMarquee is an "ass" read (or just scoot through if you lack a decade or two) his blogs beneath his posts, I'll set a vote later.

Any way back to art for arts sake please - any questions about EULA's post 'em to the powers that be.

This "drunken ass" is now off to bed.

rant over....

having massive productive posts knocked off top spot for this..... Allah protect us.....


ae

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