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cyderak
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Posted: 02/02/2012 at 8:13pm | IP Logged Quote cyderak

Cool.......look forward to it.

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anaxetogrind
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Posted: 02/03/2012 at 6:19pm | IP Logged Quote anaxetogrind

Personally, I use Fantasy Grounds. It is user friendly though I stare longingly at the other VTT's with simple systems for LOS and Fog of War.

My main players are a very stubborn lot. They have trouble with the dbl click to apply effects and roll dice. I don't even want to think about trying to explain to them how to use macros and functions in Map Tools.

Though it does mean the only Hackmaster Basic I get to play is face to face once or twice a year.

We have looked at Battle Grounds several times but its hard to get people to switch once the speed bump of a learning curve has been passed.

Keep us updated SIM.

Edited by anaxetogrind on 02/03/2012 at 6:19pm


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danielpryor
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Posted: 02/03/2012 at 8:53pm | IP Logged Quote danielpryor

I used to use Fantasy grounds. it was my first VTT. Simple interface but lacks any advanced functions. i even paid and registered that one too. So far I've paid for and registered like 4 different ones. To date, only BRPG has come even close to what I want.
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cyderak
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Posted: 02/03/2012 at 9:56pm | IP Logged Quote cyderak

danielpryor wrote:
I used to use Fantasy grounds. it was my first VTT. Simple interface but lacks any advanced functions. i even paid and registered that one too. So far I've paid for and registered like 4 different ones. To date, only BRPG has come even close to what I want.


I'd have to agree.

I am thinking of going back to Battlegrounds.

Thats unless of course SIM can change my mind.

Edited by cyderak on 02/03/2012 at 9:58pm


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Kepli
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Posted: 02/04/2012 at 2:21am | IP Logged Quote Kepli

Same here ... FG was my first VTT as well and I used it quite often. Since I only use a VTT now for around the table, BRPG fits the best sofar.

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cyderak
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Posted: 02/24/2012 at 9:52pm | IP Logged Quote cyderak

So...SIM.....any updates?

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jfrazierjr
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Posted: 02/25/2012 at 8:26am | IP Logged Quote jfrazierjr

anaxetogrind wrote:

My main players are a very stubborn lot. They have trouble with the dbl click to apply effects and roll dice. I don't even want to think about
trying to explain to them how to use macros and functions in Map Tools.


Ok, perhaps am not reading this correctly or you are not explaining correctly(and I did not go back to re-read your previous posts on this
thread), but I don't quite get why you think it might be hard to explain to them how to use macros and functions in MapTool. I guess it depends
on whether your expecting them to "program" their own macros vs you(or the GM) setting things up for them. If the latter, then well... I have to
assume they are total computer novices since in MapTool it's a matter of opening a window or two, selecting a token, and clicking a button with a
specific name(or optionally with more upfront work by someone clicking a "link" on a character sheet).   

From what I have searched, I see a Hackmaster Basic framework, but knowing nothing about that system, I have no idea how well formed or complete
it is for playing that system.
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cyderak
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Posted: 02/26/2012 at 7:21am | IP Logged Quote cyderak

jfrazierjr wrote:
anaxetogrind wrote:

My main players are a very stubborn lot. They have trouble with the dbl click to apply effects and roll dice. I don't even want to think about
trying to explain to them how to use macros and functions in Map Tools.


Ok, perhaps am not reading this correctly or you are not explaining correctly(and I did not go back to re-read your previous posts on this
thread), but I don't quite get why you think it might be hard to explain to them how to use macros and functions in MapTool. I guess it depends
on whether your expecting them to "program" their own macros vs you(or the GM) setting things up for them. If the latter, then well... I have to
assume they are total computer novices since in MapTool it's a matter of opening a window or two, selecting a token, and clicking a button with a
specific name(or optionally with more upfront work by someone clicking a "link" on a character sheet).   

From what I have searched, I see a Hackmaster Basic framework, but knowing nothing about that system, I have no idea how well formed or complete
it is for playing that system.


I don't think anyone using a VTT should have to even know what Macros is. VTT software should be all double click and any updates should be .exe files. Thats the biggest reason people choose VTT softwares is so that they don't have to be a computer programmer to use it.

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jfrazierjr
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Posted: 02/26/2012 at 11:22am | IP Logged Quote jfrazierjr

cyderak wrote:

I don't think anyone using a VTT should have to even know
what Macros is. VTT software should be all double click
and any updates
should be .exe files.



I know this is going to sound snarky and perhaps even
rude to some people but in response to your entire post I
have to say "It
must be nice to live in a world where everything is
custom made to order "for you"(you being the "consumer",
not you personally by
name.), almost to the point where the provider read your
mind enough to give you what you wanted before you even
asked for it...

Unfortunately, I don't happen to live in that world and I
doubt very many people do(with the possible exception of
a small set of
elitist who think that if if can't be done X way, then it
should never be done at all...thinking of a certain
software ecosystem
that will remain nameless..)    

Your approach and thoughts might work for a few VTT's and
a few Game systems, but the model is woefully inadequate
for a very large
segment of the RPG world who DON'T use VTT X or RPG game
Y and event more importantly, what about those people who
DO use game
system Y, but have their own house rules. A pre-built
solution still leaves them out in the cold. I
don't fault you for
your preference of VTT's, but do fault you on your narrow
mindedness in that there is a one size fits all or that
there ever could
be.


cyderak wrote:
Thats the biggest reason people choose VTT
softwares is so that they don't have to be a computer
programmer to use
it.

And here I thought that the biggest reason people choose
VTT software was so that they could play games with
people who might
happen
to be located anywhere else in the world(be they friends
or even just anonymous people who want to play and can't
gather people
they
already know). Not quite sure where you are going with
this statement. If you are implying that you "have" to
be a computer
programmer to use MapTool, I would   vehemently
disagree
with anyone's assertion that MapTool is
for programmers only.   
Personally, though I happen to BE a programmer AND have
contributed code to MapTool's code, at this point I play
only Face to Face
with people I know using a projector.   Though I have in
the past and will likely do so some in the future, my
past 8 games or
so(roughly once a month) have had ZERO automation and
MapTool has been used solely as a glorified BattleMat(and
Initiative
tracker)... zero programming by the "end user" at all.
One guy other than myself has to click a button to
advance the initiative
counter on his computer... and he is hardly a
programmer... of course, he could only use single click
and not double click (oh the
horror!!), so perhaps that's a bit more difficult.

When I played online several years ago with people I did
not know, the extent of the "programming" was for each
person to right
click a macro button(which shows on a panel the defaults
to view-able on start up of the application) to select
edit, change the
Name field of the popop window to be the "name" of your
spell, weapon, etc, click down the the "body" field of
the "macro" and type
one or more dice expression and surround each dice
expression with square brackets and optionally put in
some text for "flavor",
eg:

Quote:
I swing my sword to attack, rolling [d20+5] to hit
and [d8+5] damage on a hit.


Perhaps it's just my programmer background and nature,
but I personally don't feel this is particularly onerous
for anyone to know
how to do, especially if it let's them use just about any
game system ever created and not limited to one of the
few small handfuls
the developer supports. Of course, now MapTool allows
you to actually choose some target(s), compare defenses
vs your attack
roll(s), apply damage, etc IF YOU SO CHOOSE(ie, not
forced) but you have to do some extra work as one would
expect.   However, also
note that a lot of very nice people have already done a
huge majority(if not all) of that work for you on many of
the most popular
game systems, in which case you download and open a file,
click a button(or perhaps several in series) to set up
your characters
stats, weapons, spells, etc and you the end user just
concentrates on building the map/encounter.   Now, if you
have house rules or
a game system not already supported, then yea, you will
have to get your hands a bit dirty and in most cases can
achieve what you
want to do with some time, effort, and help from the
forums.   The point here is that unlike many other
programs where "they"(being
the producer) build it for you, you are not left out in
the cold for systems they don't support or for
optional/house rules they
did
not implement.



Now a moment of apology for the makers and users of
Fantasy Grounds, Battlegrounds, etc as I in no way intend
to disparage your
hard
work(for the creators) or VTT of choice(for users). I
know Heruca(maker of Battlegrounds) comes to DJ
sometimes, and I am sure
other VTT creators probably stop by here also, so again,
I want to make sure it is understood that I don't mean to
put you guys
down. I appreciate any of you guys for your hard work,
many of you do this on the side for some extra money vs
as a career and you
still manage to provide some very good software.

Edited by jfrazierjr on 02/26/2012 at 11:24am
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mercutio
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Posted: 02/26/2012 at 12:17pm | IP Logged Quote mercutio

jfrazierjr wrote:

I know this is going to sound snarky and perhaps even
rude to some people but in response to your entire post I
have to say "It
must be nice to live in a world where everything is
custom made to order "for you"(you being the "consumer",
not you personally by
name.), almost to the point where the provider read your
mind enough to give you what you wanted before you even
asked for it...
That is, indeed, the exact relationship of consumers and producers. IF the producer doesn't meet
the needs of the consumer, then the consumer doesn't use the producer's product. Nor should he. If I had to
use a text editing program that required me to program my own macro for checking the spelling in the
document, I'd instead search for a different program to use. Only as a last resort would I resort to trying
to teach myself that much coding.

Quote:
Your approach and thoughts might work for a few VTT's and
a few Game systems, but the model is woefully inadequate
for a very large
segment of the RPG world who DON'T use VTT X or RPG game
Y and event more importantly, what about those people who
DO use game
system Y, but have their own house rules. A pre-built
solution still leaves them out in the cold. I
don't fault you for
your preference of VTT's, but do fault you on your narrow
mindedness in that there is a one size fits all or that
there ever could
be.
Now you're assuming that all VTTs should be marketed for all game systems for all people. That is
akin to insisting that any and all programs written today should be universally cross-platform and appealing
to all consumers. And that's just completely untrue.


Quote:
And here I thought that the biggest reason people choose
VTT software was so that they could play games with
people who might
happen
to be located anywhere else in the world(be they friends
or even just anonymous people who want to play and can't
gather people
they
already know). Not quite sure where you are going with
this statement. If you are implying that you "have" to
be a computer
programmer to use MapTool, I would   vehemently
disagree
with anyone's assertion that MapTool is
for programmers only.
Yes, VTTs are for people to play RPGs across geographic bounds. But if I did
have to program all my own stuff all the time, I would look for another VTT.
   
Quote:
Personally, though I happen to BE a programmer AND have
contributed code to MapTool's code, at this point I play
only Face to Face
with people I know using a projector.   Though I have in
the past and will likely do so some in the future, my
past 8 games or
so(roughly once a month) have had ZERO automation and
MapTool has been used solely as a glorified BattleMat(and
Initiative
tracker)... zero programming by the "end user" at all.
That's nice. But implying that all people
should be content to use it like that is silly. I have taught myself some basic macros with MapTool, but
trying to explain to my brother, not as technically inclined as I am was like speaking a foreign language.

Honestly, the only thing that Maptool really needs is a built-in dicebox. Rather than make me type in the /r
1d20+5 every time, if I had something that even looked just like a basic calculator, frankly Maptool
wouldn't need anything else for me, in particular.

Quote:
I swing my sword to attack, rolling [d20+5] to hit
and [d8+5] damage on a hit.
That's great - but what about adding in situational bonuses? That then
requires having a macro programmed for every and any situation. That's why I just stopped bothering. My
character in my current game is typically mounted. I would LOVE if the game took that into account when I
clicked "attack" without me having to program literally 5 different attack macros for each weapon.

Quote:
Perhaps it's just my programmer background and nature,
but I personally don't feel this is particularly onerous
for anyone to know
how to do, especially if it let's them use just about any
game system ever created and not limited to one of the
few small handfuls
the developer supports.
That is absolutely just your programmer background. I don't have that. I
fumbled enough to figure out how to do things myself, but it's far harder than you think it is for people
who aren't programmers. Seriously, since you are a programmer you just don't have the perspective to see it
from the POV who don't know a macro from a Big Mac.

Quote:
However, also
note that a lot of very nice people have already done a
huge majority(if not all) of that work for you on many of
the most popular
game systems, in which case you download and open a file,
click a button(or perhaps several in series) to set up
your characters
stats, weapons, spells, etc and you the end user just
concentrates on building the map/encounter.
Only if everyone at the table is using the same structure
and their computers can handle it. My netbook simply cannot handle the framework for Pathfinder. It is
unplayably slow and forces crashes.

Quote:
you will
have to get your hands a bit dirty and in most cases can
achieve what you
want to do with some time, effort, and help from the
forums.
And you've totally shot your own argument in the foot here. First you say you don't need
programming knowledge, but then point out that if you want to use the full capabilities of the program, not
only do you need programming knowledge, but you need all the extra time and effort to do that programming. I
assure I don't have that time.

I'm not calling out MapTool. I use it, like it, recommend it, and have taken about 20 minutes to learn basic
macro programming, something I learned a little about during college computer classes and Excel. I also
spent a lot of time working with Microsoft Access, but again, all of that was blind fumbling. As such, even
my baseline with "programming" is leaps and bounds ahead of that of some of the people I game with.

MapTool is great for what it does, but you simply cannot ignore its faults or somehow try to convince me
that its faults aren't really faults. I've been trained in professional sales, and that's the kind of thing
salesmen are taught to do, but that doesn't make them correct. Frankly, as much as I like MapTool, if there
was an alternative that I thought would satisfy more of my needs (low price, everyone I game with can use
it, user friendly, dicebox, etc), I'd switch in a heartbeat. But MapTool is the VTT on the market that hits
the most wickets for me.

Edited by mercutio on 02/26/2012 at 12:18pm


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