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Quode2000
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Posted: 01/17/2004 at 10:55am | IP Logged  

This was probably covered but can we use this program to publish our own adventures?
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Posted: 01/17/2004 at 5:11pm | IP Logged  

My understanding is that personal use is okay. If you are going to sell maps made with Dundjinni, there is an issue with distributing our copyrighted art. I know this has been discussed at Fluid, but I'm not sure what the resolution was. Rather than speculate I will ask about this.

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SikSavant
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Posted: 01/18/2004 at 1:50pm | IP Logged  

It seems reasonable to think that a rasterized version of any map that we might make would be ours to use royalty free (ala ProFantasy). I see a bugaboo if somebody wanted to sell the native save file format, that would essentially give away art pack elements not purchased by the map buyer. And yet, we are encouraged to make our maps available to one another...hmmmm.

You should be fine with a raster version of your map. Otherwise, just making copies of a map you made and then giving them to your friends would also be a violation of the copyright. It would be a shame not to be able to submit them to Dungeon magazine, or include them in your own PDF adventure product. Heck, that's part of the reason for owning Dundjinni in the first place!

Selling your map doesn't really deprive Fluid of Dundjinni sales. If your buyer wants more maps, they have to buy the software themselves or find somebody that already has, and contract the service.

I do not speak for Fluid! I'm sure they will be reasonable.
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Darkness
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 7:48am | IP Logged  

There is more to it than that.

The basic tile art that you use to create the floors, walls, etc would be considered the same as a pallete in any paint program. I do not think you would be violating any law by publishing a piece of art you created using another copyrighted program.

On the other hand their art that is included, basically objects, belongs to them and without explicit approval you would be violating copyright law. Most programs like this give specific approval of the use of their art for things like entering contests in magazines or single use, non-business oriented functions. Remember to violate someones copyright you need to make money from the sale of it or at least try to make money from the sale of it.

Personal use is personal use. You are free to make copies to hand out to the people you are playing with. It is the intent of the program for you to use this in your adventures with your friends. They would have a very hard time proving to a court that you violated their copyright using the software the way it was intended.
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SikSavant
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 2:49pm | IP Logged  

Darkness wrote:

Personal use is personal use. You are free to make copies to hand out to the people you are playing with. It is the intent of the program for you to use this in your adventures with your friends.


So long as you recover those copies at the end of the day. Otherwise making copies of audio CDs for folks other than yourself should be legal, and, of course, it's not. I also don't think any publisher would let a school system buy one copy of a book, make several hundred photocopies for students, even if the school did collect the copies at the end of class.

I suppose whatever Fluid decides won't really hurt the hobbiest anyway. Professional map makers will still use Photoshop, Illustrator, Campaign Cartographer, or whatever because it's what they know best.
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Darkness
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 4:35pm | IP Logged  

You are right and wrong at the same time. Although it would be illegal for a school to copy an entire book, it is not illegal for them to copy specific information to use, such as homework assignments ect... Most copyright cases must stand on the fact that the owner lost funds from what you did. Making pictures with a program that is designed for making and printing pictures cannot and will not be considered a copyright infringement. Using Artwork would be a copyright infringement if you wished to publish the art as your own, without permission. I would think that Fluid would love for you to publish adventures as long as you stated that all maps were created using "Dundjinni" that is the best form of Advertisement there is. This too could be incorporated into their Copyright agreement, so that they would not have to make specific agreements with every user..

Remember that this is a tool for creating maps, at some point (and it is grey) the "art" now belongs to the maker. Not Fluid...

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SikSavant
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 7:17pm | IP Logged  

I like the thought about Fluid using a "created with" tag requirement on published adventures. In fact, since Dundjinni generates HTML they could include a small graphic that links directly to the site.
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Mindy
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 7:59pm | IP Logged  

Hello all -

A word from the biz end here.

We're very pleased and flattered that people want to use our software to create commercial maps. In addition to those who have mentioned it in this forum, several large publishers have approached us about using Dundjinni in their products.

However, we hadn't really considered this use of the product until recently and so we're still trying to figure out how best to accommodate that desire. We'll certainly take your input into consideration. Right now, we're considering a range of approaches to cover the spectrum of requests but haven't reached a decision.

Regardless of our approach to commercial uses, we are committed to permitting non-commercial exchanges. We made this product so that the average Joe GM could bring his vision and adventures to life - and share them with his friends and fellow enthusiasts. So don't worry - you'll always be free to give copies of your maps and adventures to your friends.

In fact, we hope that Dundjinni users will share their maps and adventures with their community via direct file swaps or uploads to our website archive (this upload feature on our website is forthcoming).   For people who don't own Dundjinni, you can share exported html files for adventures, or exported jpeg and bitmaps for maps.   Same goes for printed versions.

For others who do own the Dundjinni software, you can share the .dja file.   What you cannot share are the individual art packs or art objects like a bathtub or a catapult or etc.

To address the issue of sharing .dja files with users who don't own the same artpacks, we've installed placeholder art icons. For example, if you make a map that uses the Catapult from the Castle Art pack, and you share that .dja file with someone who doesn't own that art-pack, then a generic placeholder object will appear in your friends .dja file in place of the catapult.   So send along the .dja file as you see fit. Just don't send the actual catapult or art pack that supports it (we've put copy protections in place to prevent this as well).

Finally, as an aside, there seems to be some potential confusion about copyright law in this thread. From a legal standpoint, all of the artwork (including textures) in the product (as well as the code itself) is protected under US and international copyright law as original works of authorship. As creator and owner of those works, Fluid always has the right to determine what rights it wishes to license and under what terms. (Thus, the right to use and copy Photoshop textures, etc. to create commercial products is granted within the terms of Adobe's license for that software - and such a commercial use license probably makes sense given the high end nature and price for that product.)

To take it a step further, when you create a map or adventure with Dundjinni, you are creating a work that combines copyright-protected material from Dundjinni (such as the artwork and tiles) with your own copyright-protected work (the design of the map and the text of the adventure). In this case, you would own all rights to your original creation (the underlying map design and adventure text) and would be free to sell that as you wish. However, except to the extent licensed by us, you would not be free to commercially exploit (e.g., sell) anything (such as the Dundjinni-generated map) that incorporates our copyright-protected materials (such as the artwork and tiles), just as we would not be entitled to sell a map you designed without your permission, even though it includes our artwork.

Hope this clears up some confusion.
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SikSavant
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Posted: 01/19/2004 at 10:43pm | IP Logged  

That clears much of it up, alright. Unfortunately, it's starting to sound like we will have to give away our adventures, rather than "publish and sell". Maybe that could be one of the benefits of the Platinum level software? Or maybe a fourth "Publisher" level is needed?

It's obvious that Fluid is putting a lot of work into this product and well deserves to recover their investment. I just hope that some terms can be reached to allow the many talented adventure authors out there to also recover some of their personal investment.

Thanx again, for the great explanation of the situation!
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Easy Rhino
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Posted: 01/30/2004 at 7:27am | IP Logged  

Sounds like professionals will need to stick with Campaign Cartographer, since they have a version of their product that allows you to sell the finished rasterized maps royalty-free.

I use Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator, and I frequently use swatches, templates, and pattern brushes Adobe provides to create my artwork. I can sell my finished artwork without worrying about Adobe copyright violation. I don't see why Dundjinni artwork is any different. The customer pays for the Dundjinni toolset, and therefore the map author should own his/her creation.

With such a copyright stance, it seems that Dundjinni is trying to flex a certain level of creative ownership of all maps produced with the software.

Personally, my interest level in Dundjinni just dropped a few points after reading this thread.

What about this: can you sell your published adventure and then provide free supplemental maps created with the Dunjinni software to your customers? If that's the case, all a publisher would need to do is advertise that the adventure comes with maps, and then provide links to those maps as a free product supplement. Thus, you are "giving away" your maps while still selling your adventure.

Edited by Easy Rhino on 01/30/2004 at 7:29am
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Webmaster J.T.
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Posted: 01/30/2004 at 11:22am | IP Logged  

Professionals
We would love professionals to use our product. We have not determined the content of the license yet, since this is a new idea for us.

Adobe
As Mindy mentioned, they specifically allow use of their textures in their license, and charge lots of money.

Creative Ownership
If you look again Mindy states specifically that you own the design of your maps. The only thing we own is the source art. (Speaking of which, if you import all your own art into our program you would have unrestricted rights to sell your map.) But again, we want you to be able to sell your maps, even with our art, but we need to come up with a license that is fair.


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mordelack
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Posted: 03/07/2004 at 12:55pm | IP Logged  

Has Fluid come to a descision yet on the commercial use of the product?
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Darkness
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Posted: 03/08/2004 at 4:46am | IP Logged  

Below is Corels EULA - This is what Fluid should do. This is pretty much industry standard and probably holds up best in court. As I have stated previously, I am not a Laywer, but I have taken many courses in copyright laws and I believe that it is very very difficult for a company like Fluid to go after you for creating art with their product since that is exactly what the program is designed for. Fluid can stop you from abuse of their images or direct resale of their images, but once you turn it into your own art, the courts tend to favor the artist.

Just my opinion
Darkness

2. COREL GUIDELINES FOR THE USE OF CLIPART AND STOCK PHOTO IMAGES:

Corel products contain numerous clipart and photo images (collectively referred to as the "Images") which are either owned by Corel or licensed from a third-party. As a user of Corel products you are free to use, modify and publish the Images as you wish subject to the restrictions set out below. If you are uncertain as to whether your intended use is in compliance with the Guidelines set out below, we recommend that you seek the advice of your own attorney or legal counsel. Corel will not provide you with an opinion as to whether your use is in compliance with these Guidelines.

2.1 YOU MAY, subject to any restrictions set out below:
(i) incorporate any Image(s) into your own original work and publish, display and distribute your work in any media; provided you include a copyright notice in your work reflecting on the copyright ownership of both you and Corel as follows:

"Copyright (c) 200__ [your name] and its licensors. All rights reserved."
You may not, however, resell, sublicense or otherwise make available the Image(s) for use or distribution separately or detached from a product or web page. For example, the Image(s) may be used as part of a web page design, but may not be made available for downloading separately or in a format designed or intended for permanent storage or re-use by others. Similarly, clients may be provided with copies of the Image(s) (including digital files) as an integral part of a work product, but may not be provided with the Image(s) or permitted to use the Image(s) separately or as part of any other product; and
(ii) make one (1) copy of the Image(s) for backup or archival purposes.

2.2 YOU MAY NOT:
(i) create scandalous, obscene, defamatory or immoral works using the Image(s) nor use the Image(s) for any other purpose which is prohibited by law;
(ii) use or permit the use of the Image(s) or any part thereof as a trademark or service mark, or claim any proprietary rights of any sort in the Image(s) or any part thereof;
(iii) use any of the Images related to identifiable individuals or entities for any commercial purpose or in a manner which suggests their association with or endorsement of any product or service;
(iv) use the Image(s) in electronic format, on-line or in multimedia applications unless the Image(s) are incorporated for viewing purposes only and no permission is given to download and/or save the Image(s) for any reason.
(v) rent, lease, sublicense or lend the Image(s), or a copy thereof, to another person or legal entity. You may, however, transfer all your License to use the Image(s) to another person or legal entity, provided that (i) you transfer the Image(s) and this License, including all copies (except copies incorporated into your work product as permitted under this License), to such person or entity, (ii) that you retain no copies, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device, and (iii) the receiving party agrees to be bound by the terms and conditions of this License; and
(vi) use any Image(s) except as expressly permitted by this License.

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Webmaster J.T.
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Posted: 03/11/2004 at 7:02pm | IP Logged  

This is probably a very important issue for some users, while most users probably don't care because they have no intention of selling their maps anyway. We have not come to a decision yet. We will have to decide on something before we ship, obviously. That said here is our current thinking:

* Dundjinni is a product targeted at casual retail users, with appropriate user support and pricing structures.
* The art included with Dundjinni is part of our brand image, which we would like to maintain commercial control over.
* You may make as many maps as you want, printed or digital, using our art, as long as you give them away for FREE.
* You must include an appropriate copyright notice for any wide-scale distribution, e.g. on a web site.
* If you don't use any of our art you have unrestricted rights to use the program for any commercial or non-commercial purpose. We expect a large amount of user-created objects and textures to be made available for free on our web site to support that.
* You may not SELL anything that includes our art. If you want to do this you must contact us and negotiate a separate agreement.

So that's where we are right now. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Edited by Webmaster J.T. on 03/11/2004 at 7:20pm


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Darkness
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Posted: 03/12/2004 at 5:44am | IP Logged  

Thats fair. Not friendly, but fair. It is a business and you should maintain control of your product, but I would caution you that it is hard to enforce and even harder to win in court. Art is a very grey area when it comes to copyrights. The courts almost always favor the artist no matter where they derived there medium.
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Roaming
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Posted: 03/17/2004 at 10:15am | IP Logged  

Yeah, I do agree with Darkness but even more so I think you guys are missing the train on the issue. I know for myself, I looked at maps and such from artists whom I thought had skill, those like Chris West. He appeared to be using Adobe PS and since this was the quality of map I was looking to create, I purchases and started learning. I am sure I am not alone in this method of picking what tools I use and do not use.
In my mind, you have just stated. Only those who are not professional designers or never aspire to be profession designers should use your product. Pretty insane message to me. Granted, you can reply with, well someone aspiring can use it for now but why bother, why not take the time now to learn the tool that will carry him or her to their goal and not have to switch at the end and perhaps causing them to fall short. Even those folks at Profantasy, whom to be honest fall into your same exact hole and have been at this alot longer do not dare take this solution. DnD once had a hardlined approach vs the rule set being used by third parties and over time it was changed not just for the better of the game (Though I am sure that opinion varies) but also for the life into the company as well. If someone creates a map for an adventure and sells it, I fail to see how this hurts you company even remotely. The only thing it will cause is people who read it will wonder, what tools or how did he create the map. I think thats refered to as "free advertisement".
In my opinion, this is your chance to do more then state, you are a company who's goal is to create software for the RPG world. Those are just words. There are to many examples of products, like yours, who do not try and wrestle free every dollar from the customers nor attempt at retaining such a user policy that in the end, only hurts the product. You are asking for top dollar for your software and yet only aiming at users and not professionals. Some of these same users, refuse to spend 40+ dollars for a book for their favorate game.
Now the part that boggles my mind, I have been developing software for almost 2 decades. You guys are telling me you never once thought of professionals using your software to create maps for their products? This brings back painful ETools memories when no one seem to figure out the life cycle of the application or user requirements.
Your product is pretty nice and allowed me to create a duplicate map in a fraction of the time it took me in Adobe PS but the map is not usable. On that note, I do wish you guys luck and will check back every now and then to hope you have changed your policy.


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Giant Smiter
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Posted: 03/23/2004 at 6:52am | IP Logged  

this is like saying that when I paint a picture with oil paints that the image is not mine because it is made up of the paints from another company. I guess if you look at it like this. Krylon is to blame for all the grafitti on city walls.. they infact must own the copyright to it, seeing how most of it is done with their product. I hope they get a big part of the sales for all the magizines that feature these images. guess I'll go looking for a new toy to play with.
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Darkness
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Posted: 03/23/2004 at 7:22am | IP Logged  

Lets try to clarify a few things. The graphics of Dundjinni are not "art" as defined by copyright laws. They are considered graphics.

Art is classified as less than 200 signed copies or a single original.

Graphics are a copyrightable object, although it is a lot tougher to prove. First it must be unique and identifiable and not be considered commonplace or even percieved to be commonplace.

That is why I have been arguing that they should open up their graphics for use with minor restrictions.

For them to try and prove that their cobblestone is theirs and not someone elses, when a program like Tilemaker will generate something that looks exactly like it - with a random algorithm - they will be hard pressed to take anyone to court. That being said, there is a lot of unique Graphics (Art) in the package, that is clearly and obviously theirs.

I just believe they would be better off and the program would be better served if they gave limited rights to the users.

Edited by Darkness on 03/23/2004 at 7:25am
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SikSavant
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Posted: 03/23/2004 at 9:07am | IP Logged  

Darkness, I was curious to check out the program Tilemaker that you refer to, but I can't find anything online. Do you have a URL for this package or company?
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Darkness
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Posted: 03/23/2004 at 11:47am | IP Logged  

Sorry about the mis-spell
it is called texture maker

Texturemaker.com
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